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I have a lot of surname prefixes “de/du”, “ap/ab” “fetch”, “von/van” etc. I stopped putting them in prefix because that’s only available in Surname, not Married name. Either way, the sort is including them.

i know one family tree site that went to the extreme of putting these with the given names! Don’t want to do that. But, would like the sort to not include them. Especially where some families use them, others didn’t. Example – de Bourbon, Bourbon – where they sort in two different places.

----- [updated: 31Aug2023]

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There are only two correct choices:

1 – put it in the surname prefix
2 – Manually create the NAME record and put it in there.

As for the married name, you have to remember that the _MARR _MARNM that we use is a non-standard GEDCOM tag, so it is what it is and no more than that. If you want to use it (as I do) then you can let the system auto-create it for you. If you put the surname prefix in the husband’s name, then (for patrilineal naming conventions) the surname IS included in the wife’s married name.
Alternatively you can also manually create the married name (click the edit button beside the auto-created version).

The alternative to _MARR _MARNM (which I see webtrees are planning to remove: https://github.com/fisharebest/webtrees/issues/794) is to add multiple names.

1 NAME John /de Bourbon/
1 NAME John Bourbon

The solution to wanting multiple surnames (de Bourbon, and Bourbon) is to manually create the NAME and put the alternate in the SURN field.

1 NAME John /de Bourbon/
2 GIVN John
2 SURN Bourbon, Burbon

For sorting purposes surname prefixes are generally ignored.

Outside of these, I can only strongly recommend you don’t try to create new solutions outside of both GEDCOM and the kiwitrees coding conventions. They won’t work well, and are likely to break if code is changed (as it constantly is).

Nigel
My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

Rest assure, I’m not looking to circumvent GEDCOM! I wasn’t sure if I was not entering names correctly. For married name, I enter it into the Married name field “Brown” and let it make Mary Smith into Mary Brown. Ah, yes, non-standard _MARR hence no prefix makes sense now that you write it.

Read about webtrees direction. That’s why I’m with kiwitrees 🙂

The example of de Bourbon and Bourbon — they’re same family, different spelling of name. Guess one used the French style with the “de”. Or, maybe my source isn’t accurate and I’ll find out with further investigation. Hence why was hoping to have together.

Sounds like within “the rules”, it is as it is so will do.

----- [updated: 31Aug2023]

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macalter wrote:

Ah, yes, non-standard _MARR hence no prefix makes sense now that you write it.

On that subject I wonder of we are talking at cross-purposes.

If you enter the man’s name using the surname prefix, and his surname as “Bourbon”, and let the NAME part set itself automatically, it produces GEDCOM like:

1 NAME John /de Bourbon/
2 GIVN John
2 SPFX de
2 SURN Bourbon

When you then add a wife, the system will automatically set her married surname (on screen) to “de Bourbon”, and her GEDCOM will be:

1 NAME Mary /Smith/
2 GIVN Mary
2 SURN Smith
2 _MARNM Mary /de Osborne/

I’ve just tested this so I know its true 🙂

(ps – sorry for any confusion cause by me using “_MARR” in my earlier reply. You can see I’ve now corrected it.)

Nigel
My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

No, not at cross-purposes. Happens that I’m still editing existing records so I’m adding in married names. When I get to doing my Research Tasks, I’ll be adding new records and therefore the wife will take the husband’s name in most cases. (Some will have the husband added to wife.)

Didn’t give thought to mentioning as I’ve been working on edits only for just over a year. The file was in rough shape.

And now that I have the nice new Research Task report, it’ll be so much easier.

----- [updated: 31Aug2023]

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