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I have just logged out and checked a few things which are set up as ‘show to visitor’ e.g. sidebar sections, and they are visible to me as a non-logged in user, as intended. However, if you act as I believe you have proposed and change ‘show to visitors’ to ‘show to members’ this will not produce the same result at all.
Unfortunately, some very old modules don’t respect the access level settings! That’s part of the confusion, and yes, it needs to be fixed as part of my proposed change.
Surely we need to have a category which means ‘show to everyone’ .
That ‘should’ be achieved by having no specific access set. The settings were supposed to be limiting rules, not enabling ones.
and that’s the way ‘show to visitors’ appears to work for me at present
It is inconsistent at present 🙁
Nigel
My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info -
That ‘should’ be achieved by having no specific access set. The settings were supposed to be limiting rules, not enabling ones.
I’m not sure I follow that Nigel. Take, for example Admin-Modules-Sidebar settings. I seem to be obliged for each of the five sections to select one of four access levels ‘show to visitors, … Members ..Managers or Hide from everyone’ So is ‘show to visitors’ does not mean ‘show to everyone’ there would appear to be no way of ‘having no specific access set’ This appears also to be the case for Lists, Charts, Reports, etc.
Have I misunderstood something?Ron in France Website: https://clan-davies.kiwitrees.net/ kiwitrees 3.3.11; PHP 8.0.14
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Have I misunderstood something?
Not misunderstood, but missing my point. Your examples simply point to the level of inconsistencies in the current system.
Another example would be:
If ”Show to visitors” means let everyone see it, why do we have a user role of ”Visitor”?
The two are contradictory, but both do exist. Hence my question and (I think) the need to clean it all up.Nigel
My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info -
OK – thanks Nigel – I think I understand! But from my undoubtedly simplistic point of view, we just need to drop the registered user category ‘visitor’, ensure that the term ‘visitor’ , wherever it is used, is understood to mean ‘casual Internet browser’ (not unreasonable I think, and seems also to be the way macalter has interpreted it) , then clean up the hopefully few places where the logic does not work that way at present – because all the ones I’ve checked at random seem to work that way.
Ron in France Website: https://clan-davies.kiwitrees.net/ kiwitrees 3.3.11; PHP 8.0.14
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Yes, in principle you are right. Unfortunately you are also right that you may be over-simplifying 😊
But tidying this up will be worth the effort.
Nigel
My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info -
Only 3 options where Standard option should be: show to reg. user (show to members)
a: The default would be all records/menus ect controlled by member access and privacy option
1: Show to visitor=show to everybody (no need of user account)
a: want to decide here to show something that override the privacy option (perhabs a warning that my choice override the privacy option)
2: Hide to everybody
a: I use this at modules, like the fancy ones which I have link in the userdefined menus
b: Record updated
c: Not marriage
3: Show to manager(edit forgot the manager)
This would be logic to me
Regards, Jamie Jaconelli
admin and owner of a user customized version of kiwitrees (contain 3 family trees)
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Levels (I added ‘registered’ only for purpose of this thread): As I’ve worked it out in my head —
Privacy non-registered visitors vs registered members, ie: those who are in possession of a username and password
Accounts registered members vs registered editors vs registered moderators vs registered managers vs registered administrators
Modules non-registered visitors vs registered members vs registered managers vs registered everyone (all of the above)In all cases, VISITOR needs to mean non-registered viewers of the website, not currently the case. They do not have a user account or password. The term never appears in Accounts.
Default for Account settings will be registered Member.
Default for Modules will be registered Member unless changed to show to Visitors.
Default Privacy will be registered Member unless changed to show to non-registered visitors which then allows deceased (>120?? years) people to be viewed. (Although I guess the Administrator could change to show without restriction even though it would override laws of many jurisdictions.)
Default for Tags would remain at non-registered Visitors unless set in admin panel because otherwise one would end up with a blank page!Of note, the term moderator is questionable too. It doesn’t easily identify the member who has been granted editing rights without approval unless you read, and probably re-read each time, the terminology.
Also, I tend to link being able to edit (with or without approval) with being able to upload images. Yet I don’t think this is the case. Not sure if it should be.
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Levels (I added ‘registered’ only for purpose of this thread): As I’ve worked it out in my head —
Those are broadly in line with my thoughts. Just a few corrections, mainly due to some minor over-simplification of the potential complexity of a kiwitrees site.
Privacy non-registered visitors vs registered members, ie: those who are in possession of a username and password
Multiple trees per site is a major complexity. Any individual user can have different levels of access for each tree. Potentially even no access to one or more. So you need to be able to make a person a registered member of a tree – not just the site.
Accounts registered members vs registered editors vs registered moderators vs registered managers vs registered administrators
Pretty much the same issue as privacy (in fact they are really the same thing). Administrators are “per-site” All the others are “per-tree”.
Modules non-registered visitors vs registered members vs registered managers vs registered everyone (all of the above)
Mostly OK, but again, this has to vary on a “per-tree” basis.
In all cases, VISITOR needs to mean non-registered viewers of the website, not currently the case. They do not have a user account or password. The term never appears in Accounts.
Yes, but I prefer to (try) not use the term “visitor ” at all.We can’t “give” access to a “non-registered” person, as the system does not know who they are! So we can only set privacy across (most things (i.e. deceased peoples records, obviously public modules etc., then relax that overall privacy for some registered members. A subtle, but important difference.
Default for Account settings will be registered Member.
Yes
Default for Modules will be registered Member unless changed to show to Visitors.
No. Too simplistic. It’s not necessary, and very unfriendly for new users. As at present, module defaults will vary according to their purpose. Some are clearly (for 99% of sites) going to be shown to non-registered people, so that should be their default. Some others are only likely to contain members-only data, so those can be defaulted to members only. Some need to default to “admin only”. Don’t forget that some blocks can be shown to everyone, whilst some of their content will be hidden by ‘normal’ privacy rules.
Default Privacy will be registered Member unless changed to show to non-registered visitors which then allows deceased (>120?? years) people to be viewed.
That just means that privacy will be enabled by default – as it is now – so yes, that will not be changed.
Default for Tags would remain at non-registered Visitors unless set in admin panel because otherwise one would end up with a blank page!
Yes, but this area needs a lot of improvement. Not all tags, for example, can currently have over-rides (set to “show everyone”, when the default is “show to members only”) when that option should exist.
Of note, the term moderator is questionable too. It doesn’t easily identify the member who has been granted editing rights without approval unless you read, and probably re-read each time, the terminology.
Probably because it does NOT mean that. The help text for “moderator” on the User settings page is (IMHO) pretty clear:
“Moderator – This role has all the permissions of the editor role, plus permission to accept/reject changes made by other users.”
The option to have edits automatically approved can be ticked / added to (or removed from) ANY user with edit or greater rights. It’s a completely separate setting.Also, I tend to link being able to edit (with or without approval) with being able to upload images. Yet I don’t think this is the case. Not sure if it should be.
It most certainly should be, and is, as far as I am aware. But if an error has crept in somewhere please let me know. I don’t know of any way anyone with less access than “editor” can access any edit page (the only way to upload images).
Nigel
My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info -
I have also been confused about the difference between a ‘visitor’ and someone who has not registered. I thought I had to make modules and blocks visible to ‘visitors’ in order to make them available to the general public; but if you register you can only be either a member or a manager, so, I think I agree that the designation as a ‘visitor’ is redundant. Keep it simple.
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